@Not_Oles said:
The Wireshark build seems to have finished while I was sleeping!
It's beyond hilarious that @yoursunny might have been trolling when he suggested that Wireshark was my friend. Who but God can say what peoples' motivations are? But now, Wireshark seems to be here. Tshark too!
We were granted Official Troll tag so …, but we do use Wireshark daily.
Our Raspberry 400 desktop has four launcher icons on the taskbar, with Wireshark being one of them.
However, we don't compile and run Wireshark on a server, because installing graphical application in the server increases attack surface and causes unpredictable performance for server applications.
Instead, traffic is captured with either tcpdump or dumpcap command, and then transfered to local desktop to be analyzed.
If real-time analysis is necessary, Wireshark can connect to dumpcap over SSH.
Some software, such as NDN-DPDK, can generate .pcapng files to be analyzed by Wireshark.
@Crab said:
Do you know whether the kernel patch you provided is included?
It's not even in HEAD. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be much interest in this one (even tried pointing out on the mailing list that another VPS provider is also affected).
That is pretty disappointing I have to say. I kind of expected that they'd be reacting on such an obvious problem pretty quickly especially since you provided them all the needed information with a bow on the top and it is completely preventing their product to be utilized.
@linveo could you update the templates when you get some time (and I believe to NetBSD 9.4 template was still missing the configuration meta-data from VirtFusion - should just be the same as for the 10.0 image)
I have now already made a NetBSD 10.1 image (@linveo ) as 10.1 binaries started appearing this morning.
I have added this template to the available templates. Thank you!
I have added this template to the available templates. Thank you!
@cmeerw Would it possible to get another template with your Intel kernel fix so that @linveo could have AMD template and Intel template providing full coverage until your fix finds its way to the mainline?
I have added this template to the available templates. Thank you!
@cmeerw Would it possible to get another template with your Intel kernel fix so that @linveo could have AMD template and Intel template providing full coverage until your fix finds its way to the mainline?
Just sharing my update and hoping someone can point me in the right direction so I can troubleshoot better.
I've been trying to figure out how to mount a free drive to the deal I got from @Ayyub at Natvps.net.It's a 500MB RAM VPS with 5GB storage. I tried following a YouTube tutorial (and a few links I googled, what AI told me to try..) to link my Google Drive, but it didn't work, and debugging led to a dead end, even with AI help (it got stuck in a loop). I did not find much when googling this specific topic. Should I try to mount a different type of drive instead? Not sure if I even have the right questions.
Would anyone be able to point me to an official resource or guide on how to mount a drive (google or some free cloud drive to expand my storage) on FreeBSD 14.1? I'm learning BSD and getting comfortable with it, but the lack of space is limiting. I'm thinking of turning some of my HD over to VSWAP and letting most of my file storage sit in Google Drive so I can actually test some apps.
I think rclone is the easiest way to get Google Drive (or almost any other object storage) mounted to FreeBSD. It also has nice additional features like VFS caching and encryption of data.
One word of warning is that it should not really be used for extension of the local space for OS or running programs. It is good for storing data like music, video, documents etc, but I would not really recommend it for running apps. Yes you can do it, but YMMV. Depending on your use case, the Drive API rate limits could also be a very hard limiting factor to what you can and cannot do with it.
I think rclone is the easiest way to get Google Drive (or almost any other object storage) mounted to FreeBSD. It also has nice additional features like VFS caching and encryption of data.
One word of warning is that it should not really be used for extension of the local space for OS or running programs. It is good for storing data like music, video, documents etc, but I would not really recommend it for running apps. Yes you can do it, but YMMV. Depending on your use case, the Drive API rate limits could also be a very hard limiting factor to what you can and cannot do with it.
I will give rclone a try. the app will be on the VPS, the data I will host outside just because of the limitation.
I will give rclone a try. the app will be on the VPS, the data I will host outside just because of the limitation.
Just clarifying my earlier comment further that when data is stored in an object storage and you need to access it, it will have to transfer the entire file over. You cannot access it partially for reading or writing. You can access chunks if you implemented the raw API, but AFAIK mounting it with rclone or any similar tool will abstract it in a way that it will transfer the entire file over even if you want to access just certain bytes of it. Also if you are going to access a lot of small files in a very short period of time, the API rate limits could cause you problems very quickly.
Regardless give it a try and please report back how well your experiment is doing.
@DrNutella said: I've been trying to figure out how to mount a free drive to the deal I got from @Ayyub at Natvps.net.It's a 500MB RAM VPS with 5GB storage. I tried following a YouTube tutorial (and a few links I googled, what AI told me to try..) to link my Google Drive, but it didn't work, and debugging led to a dead end, even with AI help (it got stuck in a loop).
Like you, I haven't succeeded in using rclone with Google Drive. Because, in my case, I haven't really tried. I guessed, if Google doesn't have anything official about using rclone with Google Drive, then there must be a potential for or perhaps even an existing issue. Accessing Google Drive from within a container on my Chromebook works great for reasonable size files, but doesn't seem to work for me on multi-GB files. I haven't yet found a command line solution to using large files with Google Drive that is explicitly recognized by Google.
When I use other storage besides Google Drive, then, usually, I can use sftp, scp, and rsync. All of these seem to work great!
@DrNutella said: I've been trying to figure out how to mount a free drive to the deal I got from @Ayyub at Natvps.net.It's a 500MB RAM VPS with 5GB storage. I tried following a YouTube tutorial (and a few links I googled, what AI told me to try..) to link my Google Drive, but it didn't work, and debugging led to a dead end, even with AI help (it got stuck in a loop).
Like you, I haven't succeeded in using rclone with Google Drive. Because, in my case, I haven't really tried. I guessed, if Google doesn't have anything official about using rclone with Google Drive, then there must be a potential for or perhaps even an existing issue. Accessing Google Drive from within a container on my Chromebook works great for reasonable size files, but doesn't seem to work for me on multi-GB files. I haven't yet found a command line solution to using large files with Google Drive that is explicitly recognized by Google.
When I use other storage besides Google Drive, then, usually, I can use sftp, scp, and rsync. All of these seem to work great!
Hope this helps! Best wishes!
Appreciate it, thank you. I had one clarification if that is ok.
Please see the snippet below. If I am accessing my server from the terminal (SSH), do I open this link in the computer (mac) I am using (to SSH in) or do I need to access this link somehow via the server? I do not have anything but Ssh really. If via the server, trying to figure out how. This is where most instructions fail for me because I am unable to open the authorization link, even if I am already signed in, gives an error.
I will actually aim to take a screenshot the next time I do this if it happens again - feel like an idiot I did not take a screenshot before for my post. Obvious thing to do.
Please go to the following link: https://accounts.google.com/o/oauth2/auth?access_type=offline&client_id=
CUT AND PASTE The URL ABOVE INTO A BROWSER ON YOUR LAPTOP/DESKTOP
Log in and authorize rclone for access
Enter verification code> ENTER VERIFICATION CODE HERE
Since it's Happy New Year! 🎉 time, I thought I might review what could be coming up on my terrific Linveo self-compiled NetBSD-current VPS.
Updating
I need to update the sources and rebuild. That goes for both the system sources and the pkgsrc sources. Back in the old days I used to update frequently. I guess a sensible thing to do is to watch the commits and the bug reports and rebuild or maybe not, depending on what's happening.
etcupdate
My ignorance about how to use etcupdate hasn't received any attention. I need to look into that.
Wireshark
I'm still only a few minutes into the Wireshark tutorial that I was watching. I also tried tshark very briefly. So, lots to do with my new friends, w and t!
X Window System
I made a few adjustments to the configuration of the commands I was using to start remote X sessions and connect by VNC. The result on NetBSD is a slightly better arranged antique TWM desktop. I also have X running on Debian arm with CTWM, screenshot, since Debian doesn't have a TWM package any more. Here's a screenshot of what the previously linked Debian arm screenshot looks like in reverse color provided by Google's High Contrast Accessibility Extension:
I like the reversed colors -- with my myopia and astigmatism and mature cataracts, I can see the white text on black much better than the black text on white -- so maybe it might be a fun exercise to reverse some of the colors in the default configurations. Maybe there's even settings for reversing the colors.
I think it's amazing that this old software still runs great on both NetBSD and Debian!
In case anybody might be interested, here are the commands I am using:
# Reference
# https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-x.html#chap-x-configuration
# section 9.9
# On Linveo:
# echo LESbianz > password
Xvfb :1 &
xterm -display :1 -geometry 80x24+10+10 -fn 10x20 &
xclock -display :1 -geometry 125x125-10+10 &
DISPLAY=:1 twm &
x11vnc -display :1 -localhost -passwdfile /root/password &
# Locally:
# ssh -L 5900:localhost:5900 -p 42365 [email protected]
# remmina # localhost:5900
# to get full screen on remmina, click the fourth icon down from the top left
Thanks for the terrific VPS @Linveo! It works great! Happy New Year!
Very nice my friend! As soon as @linveo adds the new template from @cmeerw I will go and get MATE environment going with NetBSD.
For VNC startup you can create ~/.vnc/xstartup file which includes your commands like xterm, twm etc. The location can also have 'password' file that it'll pick up automatically.
@DrNutella said: Please see the snippet below. If I am accessing my server from the terminal (SSH), do I open this link in the computer (mac) I am using (to SSH in) or do I need to access this link somehow via the server?
I haven't ever tried what you are doing, but I am guessing you need to access the link in a browser running on the same machine on which ssh is running. That's because the link gives you a code that rclone uses to tell Google Drive that the machine on which rclone is running is authorized to access Google Drive. If you use a different machine to access the link, then it would be that different machine which would be authorized.
@Crab said:
Very nice my friend! As soon as @linveo adds the new template from @cmeerw I will go and get MATE environment going with NetBSD.
For VNC startup you can create ~/.vnc/xstartup file which includes your commands like xterm, twm etc. The location can also have 'password' file that it'll pick up automatically.
That setup is also portable meaning you can just copy the configs from one server to another one and it'll work in the new destination just fine!
So I have been playing around the last few hours. I could not sleep just thinking about this. I was able to get everything working per the instructions from rclone.org, I also followed part of this YouTube video below and did a few thing differently.
I went through the normal setup instructions. Given headless, I picked n so it provides me a URL to copy and use outside. If you pick yes (not headless) for authentication, gives internal IP which is no good. I also realized I had the wrong client set up with google when reading the error messages. Instead of web app OAuth ID, I set up Desktop App OAuth ID and that got me past the issue I was getting before.
I set up folder to mount the drive and I did 775 permissions. I ran the command below and it seems to just run on an infinite stall pattern till I abort it and does not mount the drive.
rclone mount drive: /~mydrive/
(Cursor just hanging here in next line, blank)
I am able to run the following command and confirm I a view the “getting started” file from google in the drive so access works fine. Just not mounting.
rclone ls drive:
15600100 Getting Started (in my google drive)
I am trying to figure out why the mount is failing but no luck. Let me know if any tips on what I can try. Back to my Goal - expand VPS storage space. Maybe run Emby on VPs and host files outside and see how that goes.
@Crab and @Not_Oles thanks for all the help in guiding me!
@Ayyub thank you for the giveaway so I can learn some new things!
All I had to do was stop being naive and realize the terminal was running the active mount and I need to shift the process to a daemon, LOL... Last command not found in most tutorials that will fix this issue and help you mount google drive using rclone while freeing your terminal up.
rclone mount drive: ~/mydrive --daemon
I also checked to make sure the drive is now mounted and showing up too.
@DrNutella That is very nice to hear, congratulations! Let us know how it works for your application going forward. Like it was mentioned before the access to smaller files is generally ok as long as it stays within the rate limits, but as @Not_Oles pointed out the bigger files become a problem. If you can afford to use some of the local storage, you can enable VFS caching with rclone so that it'll keep often utilized or recently accessed files local. More information and the parameters you can tune can be found at https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_mount/#vfs-file-caching.
@Crab said: @DrNutella That is very nice to hear, congratulations! Let us know how it works for your application going forward. Like it was mentioned before the access to smaller files is generally ok as long as it stays within the rate limits, but as @Not_Oles pointed out the bigger files become a problem. If you can afford to use some of the local storage, you can enable VFS caching with rclone so that it'll keep often utilized or recently accessed files local. More information and the parameters you can tune can be found at https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_mount/#vfs-file-caching.
@Crab, more than happy to, yall are awesome to guide me.
Sharing my updates, streamed a few videos as "test" to see if this would work and I am shocked how well it ran with the additional changes I made. Summary below:
Emby is not able to run sustainably on the server at first, shuts down randomly sometimes as I think it is due to running out of RAM.. so I set up another process to just monitor every 10 seconds and restart the service if it goes down. But this is no longer needed due to changes below which helped with the memory issue that must have occured to shut down the service randomly.
The connection to mount consumes about 10-20MB of ram using rclone - very very nice. When reading live to play from google drive, I sometimes see a spike of 50-100mb in my ram, I suspect this relates to live transcoding or something else happening in the background. When it spikes more, then the service may go down because I run out of ram.
To solve for that, I set up vSWAP. I ended up using 1/5 of my storage to set up 1GB vSWAP. I also set swapiness VERY high (150 - memory issues are not common). This pushes idle processes to swap proactively and I have had no issues and running smoothly, very very happy. I think this project is now done.
You are correct - I was linking to the incorrect ISO. I actually used (and still am running OpenBSD, hosting that very blog on Linveo) with the i386 version. The article has been updated to reflect that.
Comments
Announcing NetBSD 10.1
We were granted Official Troll tag so …, but we do use Wireshark daily.
Our Raspberry 400 desktop has four launcher icons on the taskbar, with Wireshark being one of them.
However, we don't compile and run Wireshark on a server, because installing graphical application in the server increases attack surface and causes unpredictable performance for server applications.
Instead, traffic is captured with either tcpdump or dumpcap command, and then transfered to local desktop to be analyzed.
If real-time analysis is necessary, Wireshark can connect to dumpcap over SSH.
Some software, such as NDN-DPDK, can generate .pcapng files to be analyzed by Wireshark.
We published an article on how to write a Wireshark dissector plugin in Lua in 2008.
Over the next decade, we coached students to write protocol dissectors, such as ndn.lua.
No hostname left!
^ %s/We/I/g
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away.
NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh)
That is pretty disappointing I have to say. I kind of expected that they'd be reacting on such an obvious problem pretty quickly especially since you provided them all the needed information with a bow on the top and it is completely preventing their product to be utilized.
I have added this template to the available templates. Thank you!
linveo.com | Shared Hosting | KVM VPS | Dedicated Servers
@cmeerw Would it possible to get another template with your Intel kernel fix so that @linveo could have AMD template and Intel template providing full coverage until your fix finds its way to the mainline?
There we go: https://download.cmeerw.net/netbsd/netbsd-10.1-pr58693.qcow2 (@linveo maybe name that "NetBSD 10.1 Minimal for Intel (PR58693)")
Thank you so much, this is great!
Happy Holidays all,
Just sharing my update and hoping someone can point me in the right direction so I can troubleshoot better.
I've been trying to figure out how to mount a free drive to the deal I got from @Ayyub at Natvps.net.It's a 500MB RAM VPS with 5GB storage. I tried following a YouTube tutorial (and a few links I googled, what AI told me to try..) to link my Google Drive, but it didn't work, and debugging led to a dead end, even with AI help (it got stuck in a loop). I did not find much when googling this specific topic. Should I try to mount a different type of drive instead? Not sure if I even have the right questions.
Would anyone be able to point me to an official resource or guide on how to mount a drive (google or some free cloud drive to expand my storage) on FreeBSD 14.1? I'm learning BSD and getting comfortable with it, but the lack of space is limiting. I'm thinking of turning some of my HD over to VSWAP and letting most of my file storage sit in Google Drive so I can actually test some apps.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
I think rclone is the easiest way to get Google Drive (or almost any other object storage) mounted to FreeBSD. It also has nice additional features like VFS caching and encryption of data.
https://rclone.org/drive/
One word of warning is that it should not really be used for extension of the local space for OS or running programs. It is good for storing data like music, video, documents etc, but I would not really recommend it for running apps. Yes you can do it, but YMMV. Depending on your use case, the Drive API rate limits could also be a very hard limiting factor to what you can and cannot do with it.
I will give rclone a try. the app will be on the VPS, the data I will host outside just because of the limitation.
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
Just clarifying my earlier comment further that when data is stored in an object storage and you need to access it, it will have to transfer the entire file over. You cannot access it partially for reading or writing. You can access chunks if you implemented the raw API, but AFAIK mounting it with rclone or any similar tool will abstract it in a way that it will transfer the entire file over even if you want to access just certain bytes of it. Also if you are going to access a lot of small files in a very short period of time, the API rate limits could cause you problems very quickly.
Regardless give it a try and please report back how well your experiment is doing.
@DrNutella
A while back I asked Google One Support whether Google had instructions on using rclone with Google Drive. Google told me they did not.
Here is a Google Sites page from NYU, which might be helpful:
https://sites.google.com/nyu.edu/nyu-hpc/hpc-systems/hpc-storage/data-management/data-transfers/transferring-cloud-storage-data-with-rclone
Like you, I haven't succeeded in using rclone with Google Drive. Because, in my case, I haven't really tried. I guessed, if Google doesn't have anything official about using rclone with Google Drive, then there must be a potential for or perhaps even an existing issue. Accessing Google Drive from within a container on my Chromebook works great for reasonable size files, but doesn't seem to work for me on multi-GB files. I haven't yet found a command line solution to using large files with Google Drive that is explicitly recognized by Google.
When I use other storage besides Google Drive, then, usually, I can use sftp, scp, and rsync. All of these seem to work great!
Hope this helps! Best wishes!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
Appreciate it, thank you. I had one clarification if that is ok.
Please see the snippet below. If I am accessing my server from the terminal (SSH), do I open this link in the computer (mac) I am using (to SSH in) or do I need to access this link somehow via the server? I do not have anything but Ssh really. If via the server, trying to figure out how. This is where most instructions fail for me because I am unable to open the authorization link, even if I am already signed in, gives an error.
I will actually aim to take a screenshot the next time I do this if it happens again - feel like an idiot I did not take a screenshot before for my post. Obvious thing to do.
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
Since it's Happy New Year! 🎉 time, I thought I might review what could be coming up on my terrific Linveo self-compiled NetBSD-current VPS.
I need to update the sources and rebuild. That goes for both the system sources and the pkgsrc sources. Back in the old days I used to update frequently. I guess a sensible thing to do is to watch the commits and the bug reports and rebuild or maybe not, depending on what's happening.
etcupdateMy ignorance about how to use
etcupdatehasn't received any attention. I need to look into that.I'm still only a few minutes into the Wireshark tutorial that I was watching. I also tried
tsharkvery briefly. So, lots to do with my new friends, w and t!I made a few adjustments to the configuration of the commands I was using to start remote X sessions and connect by VNC. The result on NetBSD is a slightly better arranged antique TWM desktop. I also have X running on Debian arm with CTWM, screenshot, since Debian doesn't have a TWM package any more. Here's a screenshot of what the previously linked Debian arm screenshot looks like in reverse color provided by Google's High Contrast Accessibility Extension:
I like the reversed colors -- with my myopia and astigmatism and mature cataracts, I can see the white text on black much better than the black text on white -- so maybe it might be a fun exercise to reverse some of the colors in the default configurations. Maybe there's even settings for reversing the colors.
I think it's amazing that this old software still runs great on both NetBSD and Debian!
In case anybody might be interested, here are the commands I am using:
Thanks for the terrific VPS @Linveo!
It works great! 
Happy New Year!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
Very nice my friend! As soon as @linveo adds the new template from @cmeerw I will go and get MATE environment going with NetBSD.
For VNC startup you can create ~/.vnc/xstartup file which includes your commands like xterm, twm etc. The location can also have 'password' file that it'll pick up automatically.
I haven't ever tried what you are doing, but I am guessing you need to access the link in a browser running on the same machine on which ssh is running. That's because the link gives you a code that rclone uses to tell Google Drive that the machine on which rclone is running is authorized to access Google Drive. If you use a different machine to access the link, then it would be that different machine which would be authorized.
Just a guess. Might be wrong.
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
I would say that using a service account with rclone is an easier approach. That's what I have always done.
https://rclone.org/drive/#service-account-support
That setup is also portable meaning you can just copy the configs from one server to another one and it'll work in the new destination just fine!
I have added the new template thanks to @cmeerw
linveo.com | Shared Hosting | KVM VPS | Dedicated Servers
And we are finally alive! Thank you very much @cmeerw for the template and @linveo providing the great community service!
No problem! Thank you for all the patience and testing of these templates.
linveo.com | Shared Hosting | KVM VPS | Dedicated Servers
This should be "We recommend that you create a non-root account and use su(1) for non-root access." /s
Anyway, @Crab, congrats on trying NetBSD! I look forward to hearing what you think about NetBSD since you have so much experience with FreeBSD!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
So I have been playing around the last few hours. I could not sleep just thinking about this. I was able to get everything working per the instructions from rclone.org, I also followed part of this YouTube video below and did a few thing differently.
I went through the normal setup instructions. Given headless, I picked n so it provides me a URL to copy and use outside. If you pick yes (not headless) for authentication, gives internal IP which is no good. I also realized I had the wrong client set up with google when reading the error messages. Instead of web app OAuth ID, I set up Desktop App OAuth ID and that got me past the issue I was getting before.
I set up folder to mount the drive and I did 775 permissions. I ran the command below and it seems to just run on an infinite stall pattern till I abort it and does not mount the drive.
I am able to run the following command and confirm I a view the “getting started” file from google in the drive so access works fine. Just not mounting.
I am trying to figure out why the mount is failing but no luck. Let me know if any tips on what I can try. Back to my Goal - expand VPS storage space. Maybe run Emby on VPs and host files outside and see how that goes.
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
Problem solved.
@Crab and @Not_Oles thanks for all the help in guiding me!
@Ayyub thank you for the giveaway so I can learn some new things!
All I had to do was stop being naive and realize the terminal was running the active mount and I need to shift the process to a daemon, LOL... Last command not found in most tutorials that will fix this issue and help you mount google drive using rclone while freeing your terminal up.
I also checked to make sure the drive is now mounted and showing up too.
EDIT:
Emby was unable to access the drive until I ran this updated mount command. Also mounting in ~ made it harder for apps to access. Moved up a folder.
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
@DrNutella That is very nice to hear, congratulations! Let us know how it works for your application going forward. Like it was mentioned before the access to smaller files is generally ok as long as it stays within the rate limits, but as @Not_Oles pointed out the bigger files become a problem. If you can afford to use some of the local storage, you can enable VFS caching with rclone so that it'll keep often utilized or recently accessed files local. More information and the parameters you can tune can be found at https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_mount/#vfs-file-caching.
@Crab, more than happy to, yall are awesome to guide me.
Sharing my updates, streamed a few videos as "test" to see if this would work and I am shocked how well it ran with the additional changes I made. Summary below:
Emby is not able to run sustainably on the server at first, shuts down randomly sometimes as I think it is due to running out of RAM.. so I set up another process to just monitor every 10 seconds and restart the service if it goes down. But this is no longer needed due to changes below which helped with the memory issue that must have occured to shut down the service randomly.
The connection to mount consumes about 10-20MB of ram using rclone - very very nice. When reading live to play from google drive, I sometimes see a spike of 50-100mb in my ram, I suspect this relates to live transcoding or something else happening in the background. When it spikes more, then the service may go down because I run out of ram.
To solve for that, I set up vSWAP. I ended up using 1/5 of my storage to set up 1GB vSWAP. I also set swapiness VERY high (150 - memory issues are not common). This pushes idle processes to swap proactively and I have had no issues and running smoothly, very very happy. I think this project is now done.
Thank you my fellow LESbians.
Insert signature here, $5 tip required
@DrNutella Very cool!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
I am confident that most of you, like I, would be pretty sure that this could not possibly be real:
https://ravynos.com/
Hey, original author of that post here 👋
You are correct - I was linking to the incorrect ISO. I actually used (and still am running OpenBSD, hosting that very blog on Linveo) with the i386 version. The article has been updated to reflect that.
Sorry for the confusion, everyone!
https://github.com/ravynsoft/ravynos
Says it has 610 contributors, 74 issues, 192 forks, and 5.7k stars. It seems to have a liberal license: https://github.com/ravynsoft/ravynos/blob/main/LICENSE
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!