Pavel Durov (Telegram CEO and founder) arrested in France

treesmokah · August 25

Telegram founder Pavel Durov was detained on arriving in France from Azerbaijan and facing 20 years in jail for refusing to censor his platform.

Durov was arrested as he got off his private jet on the tarmac at Le Bourget airport in Paris. BFMTV reports that the Telegram founder was put on a wanted list just minutes before landing in Paris, and an arrest warrant was issued.

Durov "will be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offenses: terrorism, narcotics, fraud, money laundering, receiving stolen goods, pedo criminal content," TF1 reports.

https://www.disclose.tv/id/3g19l7niyi/

From Russian state media, TACC

The arrest of Pavel Durov in France occurred at the request of the United States, believes the head of the Safe Internet League, Ekaterina Mizulina.

https://t.me/tass_agency/268275

I would not be surprised if it was related to political content on Telegram. There for sure is plenty of illegal stuff there (as is on literally every other online messenger/social media app), but France is known for being politically "on the other side" than many Telegram users and censoring political material which doesn't match overlord's desires. I'm sure same thing would happen in a country like Germany, they are all on the "same side" in terms of politics and how they deal with people who don't share their believes. How EU acts on "hate speech" (a dog whistle used to describe content that hurts their feelings) is no different from totalitarian regimes.

We'll see what comes out of it. Recently a big Telegram competitor, Signal, added usernames allowing it to be used sorta-"anonymously" like Telegram. So its worth considering as an alternative.

DataRecovery · August 25

@treesmokah said:
I would not be surprised if it was related to political content on Telegram.

This.

Same as TikTok. None other country than America is allowed to have large and popular social apps / networks.
Otherwise there could be no freedom, democracy, and equality.

And Telegram is by far the best messenger app these days.

Another important note: some sources say Durov was put on a wanted list just a few minutes before the landing in Paris, and an arrest warrant was issued:

#FREEDUROV

#FREEDUROV mascot movement

cybertech · August 25

probably chipping away at WhatsApp market share.

if you noticed WA has lots of "new" features that seems like TG has always had.

MannDude · August 25

Note to self: Don't go to France

DataRecovery · August 25

@MannDude said:
Note to self: Don't go to France

But why??

“France is the best holiday destination”
Durov: France is the best holiday destination (before arrest)

Mumbly · August 25

@MannDude said: Note to self: Don't go to France

But you're already in the U.S., so what difference does it make? Which government do you think usually requests those arrests?

MannDude · August 25

@Mumbly said:

@MannDude said: Note to self: Don't go to France

But you're already in the U.S., so what difference does it make? Which government do you think usually requests those arrests?

My comment was more of a joke than anything since France has been in the news a bit lately for their excessive reaching when it comes to policing content online like memes, comments or anything they deem offensive.

In any case, I haven''t been in the US since earlier this year.

Mumbly · August 25

@MannDude said: In any case, I haven''t been in the US since earlier this year.

Is that good or bad?

MannDude · August 25

@Mumbly said:

@MannDude said: In any case, I haven''t been in the US since earlier this year.

Is that good or bad?

Good. It's not for political or legal reasons or anything, haha. I don't need to be in an office so seems silly to stay in one place when I can go somewhere else that is new, has better quality food and isn't prohibitively affordable for things like healthcare. US is still best when it comes to speech, at least, for now. But I don't want to derail this thread

quicksilver03 · August 25

I love to play armchair conspirationist, so here's another theory: the arrest is only related to facilitating copyright infringement, and it's at the request of the French copyright cartel, which earlier this year had a judge ordering Internet providers to put DNS filtering in place to block some sites from streaming football (Ligue 1) games [1]. Following this decision, OpenDNS stopped responding to requests from French IP addresses, rather than have a country-specific filter.

This time, the initiator could very well be DAZN, which has recently acquired the rights to Ligue 1 games at prices that most football supporters found extortionate [2]. Various sources report that the games can be watched on some Telegram channels, and that Telegram cooperates with take-down notices but only after a 24 hours delay.

[1] https://next.ink/142507/contraint-de-bloquer-des-noms-de-domaine-opendns-decide-de-quitter-la-france/
[2] https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/football/ligue-1/du-jamais-vu-pour-contourner-dazn-plus-de-200-000-personnes-ont-regarde-le-havre-psg-sur-telegram-17-08-2024-PXB7LZMIGRDKTFICA6LWHEDE7Y.php

angstrom · August 25

@DataRecovery said:

@treesmokah said:
I would not be surprised if it was related to political content on Telegram.

This.

It's pure speculation at this point that it was about "political content" unless you mean "political content" to cover things like drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, fraud, etc.

I didn't know that Durov also has a French passport. I'm not sure how he got a French passport, given that as far as I know, he has never resided in France. Puzzling ...

#FREEDUROV

Isn't this a bit premature before one even knows what the case is really about?

chimichurri · August 25

@treesmokah said:
I'm sure same thing would happen in a country like Germany

You may not have heard, but there was at least one case where they played nice with Germany and gave out user info to the authorities, so I don't necessarily think so...

@DataRecovery said:
And Telegram is by far the best messenger app these days.

Best because?

In terms of features, WeChat easily beats it; they roll their own crypto (something you shouldn't really do) and don't have e2e encryption enabled by default - as a result, in terms of security and privacy, Signal and a few others are better - so, what is it that makes you think it's the best app?

Surely you don't mean the possibility of getting your data leaked to the authorities? (apart from the already mentioned Germany, seems to have happened in India as well )

DataRecovery · August 25

@angstrom said:
It's pure speculation at this point that it was about "political content" unless you mean "political content" to cover things like drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, fraud, etc.

No, I'm fully straightforward here.

Looks like many people seem to misunderstand what Telegram is.
It is not just a messaging app, it is essentially a platform or a social network like properly made twitter with channels and hundreds of thousands / millions of subscribers to those.

And many of those who were forced out of (at least pre-Musk) twitter, reddit, etc. are on Telegram now. Just in case, I mean people, who aren't politically correct in terms of globalist media.

I didn't know that Durov also has a French passport. I'm not sure how he got a French passport, given that as far as I know, he has never resided in France. Puzzling ...

Yes, Pavel Durov has French citizenship:
Pavel Durov: French citizenship

See the screenshot of his post above, praising the holidays in France.

#FREEDUROV

Isn't this a bit premature before one even knows what the case is really about?

Considering all the above, I believe it's perfectly in time.
French government and the people behind should see the reaction. Preferably before they mold the public opinion on this.

angstrom · August 25

@DataRecovery said:

@angstrom said:
It's pure speculation at this point that it was about "political content" unless you mean "political content" to cover things like drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, fraud, etc.

No, I'm fully straightforward here.

Looks like many people seem to misunderstand what Telegram is.
It is not just a messaging app, it is essentially a platform or a social network like properly made twitter with channels and hundreds of thousands / millions of subscribers to those.

And many of those who were forced out of (at least pre-Musk) twitter, reddit, etc. are on Telegram now. Just in case, I mean people, who aren't politically correct in terms of globalist media.

Of course, none of this contradicts what I said above (that it's pure speculation that ...)

In addition, the idea that Durov was arrested simply because he wasn't "politically correct in terms of globalist media" just strikes me as utterly fanciful unless, of course, "not being politically correct in terms of globalist media" also includes alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding things like drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, fraud, etc. on Telegram

I didn't know that Durov also has a French passport. I'm not sure how he got a French passport, given that as far as I know, he has never resided in France. Puzzling ...

Yes, Pavel Durov has French citizenship:

See the screenshot of his post above, praising the holidays in France.

I said that I didn't know that Durov also has/had a French passport (i.e., has/had French citizenship) -- I didn't say that I doubted that he had a French passport

I also said that I wasn't sure how he got a French passport (i.e., got French citizenship). As far as I'm aware, vacationing in France isn't a pathway to French citizenship

#FREEDUROV

Isn't this a bit premature before one even knows what the case is really about?

Considering all the above, I believe it's perfectly in time.

Considering that none of the above shows what it purports to show, the rational conclusion is that it's a bit premature

French government and the people behind should see the reaction. Preferably before they mold the public opinion on this.

So it wouldn't be more sensible to first see what the case is really about?

DataRecovery · August 25

@chimichurri said:

@DataRecovery said:
And Telegram is by far the best messenger app these days.

Best because?

The combination of convenience no other messenger has even closely, and sane, well-thought-out features: user bots, channels, group chats, native desktop client (no Electron!), large file exchange, etc.

In terms of features, WeChat easily beats it

WeChat isn't a messenger, it's a "super-app", a terrible monster created by marketers to squeeze out all the profit they can.
It is a counter-example in terms of messenger features.

in terms of security and privacy, Signal and a few others are better

I didn't mean neither security (I don't have anything super-secret on Telegram and believe it's secure enough for my needs), nor privacy — all the real-life messaging apps require a phone number, otherwise you are likely to be alone there (unfortunately).

they roll their own crypto (something you shouldn't really do)

Regarding the "proven", open-source crypto libraries:

See this cut from the recent Durov's interview to Tucker Carlson: "We got too much attention from the FBI, the security agencies..." (🎥 that's a video, click the picture ↓ ):

DataRecovery · August 25

@angstrom said: "not being politically correct in terms of globalist media" also includes alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding things like drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, fraud, etc.

Somehow it has happened that nearly everyone, who isn't on a proper side politically, is "involved" in sexual abuse of some kind:
— Donald Trump is a kind of porn king: he supposedly was visiting Moscow to meet prostitutes, supposedly had sex with a pornstar (sounds feasible), they even attempted to drag him into the Epstein case at some point, but stopped early;
— Elon Musk was supposedly showing his Super Heavy to some woman;
— Julian Assange has supposedly "raped" two women at once in Sweden (probably looking to beat Trump). The case was closed and opened several times, included contradicting extradition requests, so after all everyone was ashamedly silent about it this June;
— Looks like Kim Dotcom is the only one, who didn't manage to rape anyone. Don't ask me how it happened. Probably because his case is about money, not the politics.

I said that I didn't know that Durov also has/had a French passport (i.e., has/had French citizenship) -- I didn't say that I doubted that he had a French passport

I also said that I wasn't sure how he got a French passport (i.e., got French citizenship). As far as I'm aware, vacationing in France isn't a pathway to French citizenship

If you are looking to be so pedant, you should have noticed that the citizenship was granted in 2021 and vacation post is from this June. Both dates are in the corresponding screenshots.

So it wouldn't be more sensible to first see what the case is really about?

As time moves on, there's a very interesting thing about this case:

All the news sites are already posted about it, Musk and Carlson commented on twitter, even Dmitri Medvedev wrote something.
But despite that there are zero official statements on Durov's arrest so far.

In France the detention period without a court order (unsure about the terms) could be up to 48 hours by default.
So behind-the-scenes bargaining over Durov seems to be really furious.

x01 · August 25

Why are all those people who fight for civilian rights not travelling with a hidden identity, I don`t get it, all those money and privileges, but still think they are welcome in the western world, I don't understand their stupidness.

His security chief should really ramp up his intelligence and get proper notifications about warrants, not that hard to turn a extra round in the air, while checking if everything will work on the ground and no surprises are waiting.

France is Illuminati, Rothschild etc. country, not safe to stay there for such fighters.

angstrom · August 25

@DataRecovery said: If you are looking to be so pedant, you should have noticed that the citizenship was granted in 2021 and vacation post is from this June. Both dates are in the corresponding screenshots.

@DataRecovery , I'm not looking to be so "pedant": I think that you simply misunderstood me, so I wanted to clarify

If you can uncover how Durov obtained French citizenship, that would be enlightening

angstrom · August 25

@DataRecovery said: Somehow it has happened that nearly everyone, who isn't on a proper side politically, is "involved" in sexual abuse of some kind:

No one is accusing Durov of sexual abuse

I mentioned child sexual exploitation as a possible reason why Telegram may have been on the radar of authorities, but perhaps it was some other criminal activity (or activities)

In any case, by all signs, it's really about Durov's alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding certain unlawful things that happen on Telegram. No one is claiming (as far as I can tell) that Durov himself is doing these things

bikegremlin · August 25

@angstrom said:

@DataRecovery said: Somehow it has happened that nearly everyone, who isn't on a proper side politically, is "involved" in sexual abuse of some kind:

No one is accusing Durov of sexual abuse

I mentioned child sexual exploitation as a possible reason why Telegram may have been on the radar of authorities, but perhaps it was some other criminal activity (or activities)

In any case, by all signs, it's really about Durov's alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding certain unlawful things that happen on Telegram. No one is claiming (as far as I can tell) that Durov himself is doing these things

You can arrest anyone and mess up their life (making an example out of them) even if your evidence won't hold water in court.

That's the point.

You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Mumbly · August 25

@x01 said: Why are all those people who fight for civilian rights not travelling with a hidden identity, I don`t get it, all those money and privileges, but still think they are welcome in the western world, I don't understand their stupidness.

Because he’s not there to hide or to fight for your rights, but to market his product, make money, and enjoy his life as a billionaire. The naive ones are usually those who romanticize the position of billionaires.

angstrom · August 25

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@DataRecovery said: Somehow it has happened that nearly everyone, who isn't on a proper side politically, is "involved" in sexual abuse of some kind:

No one is accusing Durov of sexual abuse

I mentioned child sexual exploitation as a possible reason why Telegram may have been on the radar of authorities, but perhaps it was some other criminal activity (or activities)

In any case, by all signs, it's really about Durov's alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding certain unlawful things that happen on Telegram. No one is claiming (as far as I can tell) that Durov himself is doing these things

You can arrest anyone and mess up their life (making an example out of them) even if your evidence won't hold water in court.

That's the point.

Is that the point?

I'm not sure that I view Durov as an unsung hero of our times, but setting this aside, France won't be able to keep him in custody long without reasonable legal reasons, and there certainly won't be a secret trial behind closed doors before he's sent to a penal colony in a cold place (or dies mysteriously). He can afford to have good lawyers and in any case, it very probably won't be easy to build a convincing legal case against him

You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Durov wasn't arrested on his way home from work because he stole a copy of Playboy magazine when he was 16

bikegremlin · August 25

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@DataRecovery said: Somehow it has happened that nearly everyone, who isn't on a proper side politically, is "involved" in sexual abuse of some kind:

No one is accusing Durov of sexual abuse

I mentioned child sexual exploitation as a possible reason why Telegram may have been on the radar of authorities, but perhaps it was some other criminal activity (or activities)

In any case, by all signs, it's really about Durov's alleged complicity and/or negligence regarding certain unlawful things that happen on Telegram. No one is claiming (as far as I can tell) that Durov himself is doing these things

You can arrest anyone and mess up their life (making an example out of them) even if your evidence won't hold water in court.

That's the point.

Is that the point?

I'm not sure that I view Durov as an unsung hero of our times, but setting this aside, France won't be able to keep him in custody long without reasonable legal reasons, and there certainly won't be a secret trial behind closed doors before he's sent to a penal colony in a cold place (or dies mysteriously). He can afford to have good lawyers and in any case, it very probably won't be easy to build a convincing legal case against him

You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Durov wasn't arrested on his way home from work because he stole a copy of Playboy magazine when he was 16

Let me try to put it in a different way:

"This is what happens to a rich guy that steps on our toes. Imagine what would happen to you if you tried!"

It doesn't matter if he (or even Snowden for that matter) is a saint or an unsung hero. It's even more convenient if he isn't.

angstrom · August 25

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:
You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Durov wasn't arrested on his way home from work because he stole a copy of Playboy magazine when he was 16

Let me try to put it in a different way:

"This is what happens to a rich guy that steps on our toes. Imagine what would happen to you if you tried!"

You know, my evaluation of this is that it really depends on what this ("that steps on our toes") amounts to in the present situation

If there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to complain and to curse about Macron, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then I'm in full support of Durov

But, for example, if there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to discuss how to pursue child sexual exploitation, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then this steps on all of our toes, and in this case, freedom-of-this or freedom-of-that should be relegated to the dustbin

It doesn't matter if he (or even Snowden for that matter) is a saint or an unsung hero. It's even more convenient if he isn't.

Snowden's case was/is very different

foxone · August 25

Despite being a daily telegram user and telegram is my only messenger since 2014, I am so glad somebody finally put him into submission. His "end to end encrypted" messenger is actually unencrypted and this is the reason why he refuses to process data requests: he would be able to export everything about an user (private and public messages included).

Signal on the other side will happily provide all the data they have to the police: aka the time and location of last access and the registration date.

Basically, you have nothing to hide if you have nothing about your users

bikegremlin · August 25

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:
You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Durov wasn't arrested on his way home from work because he stole a copy of Playboy magazine when he was 16

Let me try to put it in a different way:

"This is what happens to a rich guy that steps on our toes. Imagine what would happen to you if you tried!"

You know, my evaluation of this is that it really depends on what this ("that steps on our toes") amounts to in the present situation

If there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to complain and to curse about Macron, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then I'm in full support of Durov

But, for example, if there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to discuss how to pursue child sexual exploitation, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then this steps on all of our toes, and in this case, freedom-of-this or freedom-of-that should be relegated to the dustbin

It doesn't matter if he (or even Snowden for that matter) is a saint or an unsung hero. It's even more convenient if he isn't.

Snowden's case was/is very different

You can't have privacy of your mail and have it checked for what you are discussing in it at the same time.
"If one child is saved" is a great argument for further enslaving people - who would say no to that?!

JeDaYoshi · August 25

Telegram team just posted this on their news channel:

📱 Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act — its moderation is within industry standards and constantly improving. (https://t.me/durov/257)

🛩 Telegram's CEO Pavel Durov has nothing to hide and travels frequently in Europe.

🫤 It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform.

🌐 Almost a billion users (https://t.me/durov/337) globally use Telegram as means of communication and as a source of vital information.

👍 We’re awaiting a prompt resolution of this situation. Telegram is with you all.

angstrom · August 25

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:

@angstrom said:

@bikegremlin said:
You can find something "suspicious" about any person alive - especially if you ask CIA for help (not that other agencies are a lot less creative).

Then you needn't even get a sentence. Just drag the case, keep them locked, smearing campaigns etc. It works so wonderfully that most people aren't aware of how little real freedom they have.

Durov wasn't arrested on his way home from work because he stole a copy of Playboy magazine when he was 16

Let me try to put it in a different way:

"This is what happens to a rich guy that steps on our toes. Imagine what would happen to you if you tried!"

You know, my evaluation of this is that it really depends on what this ("that steps on our toes") amounts to in the present situation

If there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to complain and to curse about Macron, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then I'm in full support of Durov

But, for example, if there's a secret Telegram channel where people gather to discuss how to pursue child sexual exploitation, and Durov doesn't want to reveal further details about this channel (these people), then this steps on all of our toes, and in this case, freedom-of-this or freedom-of-that should be relegated to the dustbin

It doesn't matter if he (or even Snowden for that matter) is a saint or an unsung hero. It's even more convenient if he isn't.

Snowden's case was/is very different

You can't have privacy of your mail and have it checked for what you are discussing in it at the same time.
"If one child is saved" is a great argument for further enslaving people - who would say no to that?!

Indeed, that's not a great argument, but this is because it's not about one hypothetical child who is saved, nor is it about further enslaving people

But it sounds much more dramatic to phrase it in the way that you did

In any case, we'll see how this plays out. As I said above, it won't be a secret trial behind closed doors

treesmokah · August 26

Great video summarizing what was happening and what can happen to Durov

https://odysee.com/@fireship:6/billionaire-pavel-durov-arrested...-the:0

bikegremlin · August 26

@davide said:

@bikegremlin said:
A touch of nationalism, racism, and good old nonsense?

How ridiculous that the accusation of being right-wing has come to imply being conservative! (... or a Nazi!)

Always has been - conservatives have always liked and supported fascism. They just didn't like when it started biting into profits and (obviously looking to start) bombing their homes too.

Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thought-crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.

Yup, exactly - don't call it "conservative" when there are better words to describe it.

Edit:
I hope this thread doesn't move in the direction that requires locking or removing. Keep it on topic.

treesmokah · August 26

https://x.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1828077245606342672 (archive)

France is deeply committed to freedom of expression and communication

Can't stop laughing, the very same people who criminalize speech and want to ban End to End Encryption.

Samuel Paty for example, was beheaded by an Islamist invader and people were put in prison for talking about it. "World-renowned" organizations even talked about it. Actions of French police included intimidating 10 year old kids and accusing them of hecking racism.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/11/france-is-not-the-free-speech-champion-it-says-it-is-2/
Of course its not all, but gives you a pretty good idea how "democratic" France is.

It is in no way a political decision. It is up to the judges to rule on the matter.

Yeah, about these judges... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/europe/france-justice-minister-corruption-trial.html

Macron is a clown. I don't have to repeat what I think of France and French "people".

Pavel Durov (Telegram CEO and founder) arrested in France

Comments