Are LES Provider Offers Unsubstainable ?

System · September 2023

This discussion was created from comments split from: €9/YEAR - 2C/2G/20G/250M SPECIAL DEAL!.

I have been spending a bit of time over the last couple months contacting providers with the objective of getting them to post more good offers on LES. This has met with some resistance from providers because providing special offers requires time and effort on their part. IE:

Running offer threads (including needing to generate promo codes, and ensuing our backend infrastructure can handle a potential surge in orders) is quite time consuming and we simply don't have the man-hours to invest right now.

Almost nobody is nor was interested in our services... Therefore we have decided not to make any offers as it is worthless to be honest. Hope that you understand us.

But over all the response has been positive with both old and new providers increasing to some degree the frequency of offers threads, and IMO leading to some better offers. But now I am seeing a few members going around saying the offers are unsustainable or spam offers in offer threads. Making it seem that I am working at cross purposes to what the community envisions.

So I figure it is a good time to have a community discussion on the subject.

Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?
Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?

If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?

Members that write decent how to articles on LES get a special place it my

FrankZ

yoursunny · September 2023

@c1vhosting said:
We should get a custom LES badge like "BEST DEALS"

It's more like BEST UNSUSTAINABLE DEALZ.
This title would be shared between you and VirBot.

c1vhosting · September 2023

@yoursunny said:

@c1vhosting said:
We should get a custom LES badge like "BEST DEALS"

It's more like BEST UNSUSTAINABLE DEALZ.
This title would be shared between you and VirBot.

Not that bad!

bliss · September 2023

@sh97 said:

@yoursunny said:
unsustainable dealz + payment methods without chargeback = ?

Very tempting deal, but this is a fair point.

I would believe your point in the past, but now as dedipath has passed away and most vir's VPS in US are offline, and every email only mentioned how sad or grievous the providers were without mentioning refund.

I'm seriously considering payments with charge back in the future, especially to those low-end ones.

FrankZ · September 2023

@bliss
There has been a saying around low end for a long time.
Pick two of the three options below:
1, Cheap
2. Fast
3. Good

Companies come and go all the time, and not just hosting providers, it is part of life. I am only saying this because you seem quite disillusioned lately. Try to cheer up, life is too long a time to be unhappy.

AuroraZero · September 2023

@bliss

You have always have the Yeti to come beat up on, so don't fret so much.

chris · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
@bliss
There has been a saying around low end for a long time.
Pick two of the three options below:
1, Cheap
2. Fast
3. Good

Companies come and go all the time, and not just hosting providers, it is part of life. I am only saying this because you seem quite disillusioned lately. Try to cheer up, life is too long a time to be unhappy.

There's ONLY two notable deals here on les that aren't spam and/or isn't in moderate to high chance to close down soon

Disillusioned is not the same as realism, Both are attainable without it affecting his/her personal happiness in life.... does affect the community in its little microcosm though!

Neoon · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
@bliss
There has been a saying around low end for a long time.
Pick two of the three options below:
1, Cheap
2. Fast
3. Good

That does not always apply, I got a few Ryzen Machines with SSD/NVMe for 10-12€/y.
They have been solid, It depends what you buy and from who.

Is 9€/y sustainable? I have Deals where I pay less, did they deadpool yet? No.
Do they include IPv4? Yes.

c1vhosting · September 2023

@System said:
This discussion was created from comments split from: €9/YEAR - 2C/2G/20G/250M SPECIAL DEAL!.

I have been spending a bit of time over the last couple months contacting providers with the objective of getting them to post more good offers on LES. This has met with some resistance from providers because providing special offers requires time and effort on their part. IE:

(Quote)

(Quote)

But over all the response has been positive with both old and new providers increasing to some degree the frequency of offers threads, and IMO leading to some better offers. But now I am seeing a few members going around saying the offers are unsustainable or spam offers in offer threads. Making it seem that I am working at cross purposes to what the community envisions.

So I figure it is a good time to have a community discussion on the subject.

Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?
Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?

If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?

Members that write decent how to articles on LES get a special place it my

FrankZ

Great post.

FrankZ · September 2023

@Neoon said:

@FrankZ said:
@bliss
There has been a saying around low end for a long time.
Pick two of the three options below:
1, Cheap
2. Fast
3. Good

That does not always apply, I got a few Ryzen Machines with SSD/NVMe for 10-12€/y.
They have been solid, It depends what you buy and from who.

Is 9€/y sustainable? I have Deals where I pay less, did they deadpool yet? No.
Do they include IPv4? Yes.

I also have many really great deals from multiple providers that have been around for years. So I totally agree with your premise that there are diamonds to be found at low end providers, but I also am not that surprised, or disappointed, if on occasion it does not work out that way. I just move on, and start looking for the next diamond. Maybe it's just me, but finding those diamonds makes it worth sifting through some slag.

jtk · September 2023

@System said:
Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?

Most of the offers I've seen on LES that I'd be interested in are duplicated on LET or WHT. Yes, that means the LES unique offers have rarely been appealing to me. On the other hand, once or twice, when the same offer has been elsewhere and the link or promo code was LES-specific I have used it so the provider would know I saw it here. At one time I'd have been interested in Virmach offers, but that hasn't panned out lately. This place ranks behind LET and WHT for offers generally in my experience. I mainly find myself mainly here for tech discussion and Virmach state-of-affairs until my contracts expire.

Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?

Yes to tech, personally not very interested in "fun shit posting". I prefer the reduced drama, rants, and rage fights here compared to LET.

If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?

Reading how to's generally not of interest to me, but I could imagine they might be to some. No blockers to having tech discussions currently. Seems fine in that regard.

Hope that helps, just one person's perspective.

FrankZ · September 2023

Thanks @jtk that was the kind of response I was hoping for. I'm just trying to understand why people are on LES, and where to focus my effort so it's in the right direction with what members are looking for here.

crunchbits · September 2023

@bliss said:

@sh97 said:

@yoursunny said:
unsustainable dealz + payment methods without chargeback = ?

Very tempting deal, but this is a fair point.

I would believe your point in the past, but now as dedipath has passed away and most vir's VPS in US are offline, and every email only mentioned how sad or grievous the providers were without mentioning refund.

I'm seriously considering payments with charge back in the future, especially to those low-end ones.

All I can say is once we've been asked to price-match a few dozen Dedipath offers, I was completely blown away by what they were selling and for how much. They're so far out of the realm of possibility that I don't even counter those requests. It's flat out "No, we can't do that.". I think if anyone actually saw the scale of this prior, deadpool incoming would not have been as much of a surprise.

Regarding unsustainable deals I do think its very provider-specific. I know the 8.69/19.69 non-IPv4 deal we have was called sus on OGF, but it's pretty straightforward easy math given the whole picture (infrastructure, hardware on hand, and complete business model).

@jtk said:

@System said:
Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?

Most of the offers I've seen on LES that I'd be interested in are duplicated on LET or WHT. Yes, that means the LES unique offers have rarely been appealing to me. On the other hand, once or twice, when the same offer has been elsewhere and the link or promo code was LES-specific I have used it so the provider would know I saw it here. At one time I'd have been interested in Virmach offers, but that hasn't panned out lately. This place ranks behind LET and WHT for offers generally in my experience. I mainly find myself mainly here for tech discussion and Virmach state-of-affairs until my contracts expire.

Few LES-only deals we've done somewhat recently performed well. I have tried to give metrics to some other providers. It's easy to 'default' to LET as a provider because you are so busy and to come up with a good sales thread takes additional effort. It is true that the traffic is lower, so if you're tossing a decent but not-dedipath-tier offer out you are likely to default to the most eyeballs per post forum.

That being said, the space absolutely needs redundancy (my opinion) so I've been making an effort to run some LES-only true exclusives (while restocking popular past ones) and planning a few more out now that we've exhausted the pre-planned sales events.

Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?

Yes to tech, personally not very interested in "fun shit posting". I prefer the reduced drama, rants, and rage fights here compared to LET.

provider hat off... could not agree more with this take. I know some prefer the drama, rage, and constant same-joke trolling but it does get old/predictable.

Personally, I also like a bit more of the community aspect and something besides only spam-offer posts (like mine). Unfortunately, it's nearly becoming a must if you want your thread to have any traction (at least on OGF) otherwise you'll be off the front page before half the world wakes up. The LES exclusives is a good step towards offering providers visibility without being forced into spam-tactics, even if tongue-in-cheek.

chris · September 2023

Unfortunately, it's nearly becoming a must if you want your thread to have any traction (at least on OGF) otherwise you'll be off the front page before half the world wakes up. The LES exclusives is a good step towards offering providers visibility without being forced into spam-tactics, even if tongue-in-cheek.

*Obligatory - this rant is not directly aimed at you directly, just the points you bought up! *

The other side of the coin, most people I speak to privately, refer to hosts that engage in as the spamming guy on LE* or some other insult along those lines, they've long forgotten the service as they actively ignore the spam ones! Imo good posts get interaction without all the nonsense. Listing an offer, it's still there in search aswell, seeing the same post more often is not something that'd make me buy, A lot will just scroll on past, because it's the same incessant nonsense over and over again so it's whatever you find works, but I'll avoid a provider based upon the way they conduct themselves in a forum, I know others do too! My advice is don't be the Raid: shadow legends of LES that people roll their eyes at and skip past!

With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!

One further note, is when you started I signed up...... be that guy... not the double bandwidth dipping daddy of a market of cheap skates

AuroraZero · September 2023

@chris said: With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!

I am currently watching more than two. I am awaiting to see how their strategies play out. One i was watching did exactly as I expected. Time shall tell on the others.

chris · September 2023

@AuroraZero said:

@chris said: With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!

I am currently watching more than two. I am awaiting to see how their strategies play out. One i was watching did exactly as I expected. Time shall tell on the others.

Haha, yeah there's a lot more that will fail imo - I only bother watching the worst two just out of morbid curiosity! There's probably only two providers here I'd gamble on being around long term, there's a few I hope are and the rest.... well..... that's the lowend market for you 😝

root · September 2023

Problem appears when deals are unsustainable and there is no payment which allows refunds. That smells fishy.

c1vhosting · September 2023

@root said: Problem appears when deals are unsustainable and there is no payment which allows refunds. That smells fishy.

>

Not really, just look for a trustable provider. (always read contract terms)

crunchbits · September 2023

@chris said:

*Obligatory - this rant is not directly aimed at you directly, just the points you bought up! *

The other side of the coin, most people I speak to privately, refer to hosts that engage in as the spamming guy on LE* or some other insult along those lines, they've long forgotten the service as they actively ignore the spam ones! Imo good posts get interaction without all the nonsense. Listing an offer, it's still there in search aswell, seeing the same post more often is not something that'd make me buy, A lot will just scroll on past, because it's the same incessant nonsense over and over again so it's whatever you find works, but I'll avoid a provider based upon the way they conduct themselves in a forum, I know others do too! My advice is don't be the Raid: shadow legends of LES that people roll their eyes at and skip past!

With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!

One further note, is when you started I signed up...... be that guy... not the double bandwidth dipping daddy of a market of cheap skates

Those are all good points. I would like to further clarify: I've found anything LES-specific hasn't needed spam and doesn't have issues with visibility/interactions in the same way--critiques were mostly pointed at current state OGF. I was hoping a giveaway w/some effort required and laughs (@Not_Oles stuff) would be better than literal empty bumps but in the end it's still the same approach and behavior. Cue slippery slope. Always valuable to get feedback and have a moment of introspection, thank you.

Raid: shadow legends of LES

FrankZ · September 2023

Personally I only use providers who allow me to pay with PayPal. Although I have only issued a dispute one time in the last ten years. That was HostDoc when he deadpooled three days after I bought a big yearly VM.
That being said, given the expectations of some customers regarding LE products I can understand why some providers may not want to use services where they get a $30 charge back fee on a $10 yearly VPS because the customer does not understand why they cannot use 100% of the CPU all the time for transcoding.

IMO there are basicly three types of providers that make lowend offers.

New small providers just starting out who are willing to work for free to get a foot into the market, hoping that they will be able to raise prices and make some money later.
Older more established providers who make their money in a higher end market, who make low end offers on old equipment as a way of giving back to society or a hand up to the people from very low income countries. In other words charity. They back out of doing this when the thing they though was helping people stops being appreciated, or becomes too much work, or affects their real money making business.
Masochist, I would include providers like VirMach in this category. These are providers that have a strong belief system, are extremely tenacious, and who will do whatever it takes to overcome any obstacle in their path, even if these obstacles are of their own making. Long after most of us would have thrown in the towel, they still keep going.
The mythical low end provider that makes a living by selling 2 core, 2GB, 50GB NVMe, unlimited transfer Vms for $10 or $15 a year. Has the latest hardware, does not oversell, has great customer service, and does not mind customers wanting refunds whenever they feel the provider's service does not live up to the customers standards.

I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.

FAT32 · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.

Business is not a charity so ya this will most likely not exists.

This thread reminds me of the time where I talk to providers asking for deals during Black Friday, sometimes I even worried for the providers providing unsustainable deals...

c1vhosting · September 2023

@FAT32 said:

@FrankZ said:
I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.

Business is not a charity so ya this will most likely not exists.

This thread reminds me of the time where I talk to providers asking for deals during Black Friday, sometimes I even worried for the providers providing unsustainable deals...

I think there are many small providers here looking to sell on LES as a main business.
The fact is that this is not always sustainable.

VirMach · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
Personally I only use providers who allow me to pay with PayPal. Although I have only issued a dispute one time in the last ten years. That was HostDoc when he deadpooled three days after I bought a big yearly VM.
That being said, given the expectations of some customers regarding LE products I can understand why some providers may not want to use services where they get a $30 charge back fee on a $10 yearly VPS because the customer does not understand why they cannot use 100% of the CPU all the time for transcoding.

IMO there are basicly three types of providers that make lowend offers.

New small providers just starting out who are willing to work for free to get a foot into the market, hoping that they will be able to raise prices and make some money later.

Older more established providers who make their money in a higher end market, who make low end offers on old equipment as a way of giving back to society or a hand up to the people from very low income countries. In other words charity. They back out of doing this when the thing they though was helping people stops being appreciated, or becomes too much work, or affects their real money making business.

Masochist, I would include providers like VirMach in this category. These are providers that have a strong belief system, are extremely tenacious, and who will do whatever it takes to overcome any obstacle in their path, even if these obstacles are of their own making. Long after most of us would have thrown in the towel, they still keep going.

The mythical low end provider that makes a living by selling 2 core, 2GB, 50GB NVMe, unlimited transfer Vms for $10 or $15 a year. Has the latest hardware, does not oversell, has great customer service, and does not mind customers wanting refunds whenever they feel the provider's service does not live up to the customers standards.

I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.

These can unironically describe the four stages of VirMach if you add in the other non-low end side of it. #1 we were starting out and rather than raising prices we just did #2 which was us making a lot of money on higher end market except we still kept it on old equipment, there was no reason for us to keep offering specials and we probably cut back on it but it was too much fun providing cheap services for this market. #3 has been the last couple years. Let's see if we ever achieve #4 mythical status or if we cycle back to #2 instead.

It's even funnier if you think about it, at some point we were #2 and because I did not follow the instructions on #2 we created our own #3 masochist sub-category.

FrankZ · September 2023

@VirMach said: These can unironically describe the four stages of VirMach

There has never been a better, more fun, gimmick than Virbot. A few years ago I remember my wife would just watch me follow the VirBot Black Friday thread all the while smiling and shaking her head. I for one was made very happy by your choice to do it when you no longer needed to. Of course I doubt that my happiness can make up for the misery that choice caused you afterward.

Neoon · September 2023

@root said:
Problem appears when deals are unsustainable and there is no payment which allows refunds. That smells fishy.

No, its not the payment method itself.
A lot of scams happen with CC and PP too, after 180 days, we seen those.

The payment methods a provider accepts though, could indicate that such problem could appear later on.
But I think the key point here, is still, where you buy from and what.

The way you pay, plays not the biggest role, at least in my opinion.
There are legit reasons, to use crypto or other methods, to reduce gateway payment fees etc.

root · September 2023

@Neoon said:

@root said:
Problem appears when deals are unsustainable and there is no payment which allows refunds. That smells fishy.

No, its not the payment method itself.
A lot of scams happen with CC and PP too, after 180 days, we seen those.

The payment methods a provider accepts though, could indicate that such problem could appear later on.
But I think the key point here, is still, where you buy from and what.

The way you pay, plays not the biggest role, at least in my opinion.
There are legit reasons, to use crypto or other methods, to reduce gateway payment fees etc.

You are right. Payment is not the most important aspect. Personally I like to see more options, as many options as possible.

I was just indicating that an unsustainable offer combined with limited payment options (only the ones which do not allow refunds), starts to trigger a smell on my nose. Other people might have different opinions and different levels of trust, therefore I respect their ways; but in my case I have seen providers taking money with tempting offers and closing business later, and I have seen people abusing or people not reading the terms and conditions and yet buying from fear of missing out. In the end some cases tend to become popcorn dramas, while other scenarios fade away as people tend to forgive or forget.

I wish good luck to all providers with very low offers; except the ones trying to "pump and dump" some hosting brand.

FrankZ · September 2023

I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I misspelled "unsustainable", in both the title and the OP.
I'm looking at you @AlwaysSkint
(It's too late to fix it now or the poll will get messed up.)

skorous · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I misspelled "unsustainable", in both the title and the OP.
I'm looking at you @AlwaysSkint

( chuckle ) Skimmed the title and had an opinion on it so it never passed through the filter.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." -- Obi Wan Kenobi

FAT32 · September 2023

@FrankZ said:
I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I misspelled "unsustainable", in both the title and the OP.
I'm looking at you AlwaysSkint
(It's too late to fix it now or the poll will get messed up.)

I guess anything longer than 10 characters is hard. Like Congratulesions

root · September 2023

@skorous said:

@FrankZ said:
I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I misspelled "unsustainable", in both the title and the OP.
I'm looking at you @AlwaysSkint

( chuckle ) Skimmed the title and had an opinion on it so it never passed through the filter.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." -- Obi Wan Kenobi

"Men trust their ears less than their eyes" --- Herodotus

AlwaysSkint · September 2023

Got me: epic fail!

Are LES Provider Offers Unsubstainable ?

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